Feedback on Run Tags and Moving Time/Pace Calculation

Strava,

What is the difference in tagging a Run Activity as one of these Run Types?

1) Run

2) Race

3) Long Run

4) Workout

5) Treadmill

The one difference I see is that by tagging a Run as a Race, Strava modifies the Pace to be the actual Pace instead of the Moving Pace. On all other tagged Run Types, the Moving Pace is used for mile splits (but labeled as Pace). Also, the Elapsed Time is shown at the top of the overview in large vs small font and presumably calculates the pace from the Elapsed Time.

 

1) I don't see any KB Articles on Run Types, so please elaborate on them

2) Strava should not be using Moving Pace on Run mile splits - its misleading and not accurate. If Strava wishes to display the Moving Pace vs the actual Pace, then Strava should label it as such.

3) I should not have to switch my run to a Race just to see the actual Pace mile splits.

4) IMO Strava should not even use Moving Pace, its not useful. But if they wish to use it, it should be labeled so people are not confused if it is a Moving Pace or the regular Pace. By tagging a run as Race vs Run we are somehow suppose to know that the Pace has been changed from Moving Pace to Pace? Just label the Pace always and show both. For mile splits, GAP and Moving Pace (labeled as just Pace, misleadingly) are of no interest and the true Pace is not shown (unless the run is tagged as a Race)!

 

Strava - please straighten out your usage of Moving Pace. We need to see our real pace for mile splits - not a massaged # that looks great even if we stopped at every drinking fountain.

Also, on the Run overview page, the Moving Time shown is not the actual Moving Time, its the Time. Garmin defines the following times; Time, Moving Time and Elapsed Time. Strava is overloading the usage of Time and Moving Time. The label on the web page is Moving Time, but the value is Time. Change the label to Time. And in the mile splits, you do the opposite, label the pace as Pace when its really the Moving Pace. Both of these are misleading, and in the case of mile splits do not even have the actual Pace per mile. iPhone App displays Pace as Moving Pace with no option to see the actual Pace and does not label the Pace as Moving Pace either. This needs to be fixed too.

Quite simply - label the correct values - and show the real mile split Paces. Label Moving Time as Moving Time. Label Moving Pace as Moving Pace. Label Time as Time. Label Pace as Pace. And show the actual mile split Paces (not moving pace) despite how the Run is tagged.

 

connect.garmin.com labels these values correctly and includes both regular and moving times/paces.

 

 

 

96

Comentarios

217 comentarios
  • I finally got around to reviewing Strava for TidBITS, and while my opinion of the service is overall positive, I was forced to qualify my recommendation for people who care about data accuracy. Strava's reliance on GPS track data, which is guaranteed to be inaccurate at least some of the time, is just a poor design decision. I hope a little more public focus on the problem will encourage Strava's development team to reconsider their approach.

    http://tidbits.com/article/14941

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  • Another bug (as I see it anyway) is that even if a run is tagged as a race, "Moving Time" is still used towards all of your weekly/monthly/annual/all-time totals.

    Strava is robbing me of precious minutes of exertion every time I go out running!!! Not such an issue with regular runs, but for cases like Armand's above where he's lost 12+ hours (and >50%), again it makes a mockery of everything Strava is trying to achieve.

    As a side-note, I noticed Garmin Connect's moving time algorithm doesn't seem to have these problems, so it is a problem that can probably be fixed with a little attention. For example, times from Sunday's half marathon with identical file uploads:

    Garmin Connect:    Elapsed Time - 1:40:17     Moving Time - 1:40:16

    Strava:                      Elapsed Time - 1:40:16     Moving Time - 1:38:38

     

    To be honest, I suspect the reason none of these requests get any attention is because they're busy reworking the whole interface. That way they can have a snazzy "relaunch" that gets loads of attention on blogs and the like, rather than just fixing the simple issues that affect people's day-to-day use (or in my case for running non-use) of the site. Hopefully, at least some of the points raised here might get some sort of resolution at some unspecified point down the road.

    P.S. Congratulations Armand, epic run!

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  • @Adam - great catch on a possible bug. I'll document it right away (something I can do with a quick turnaround!) Indeed, your profile stats should count total elapsed time if that is what is chosen on the run page. 

    The rest are all good points raised here. I continue to pass them along...

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  • Hi,

    I am generally very happy with Strava, but I do agree with the majority in this thread regarding "moving time" being used to calculate pace, splits etc. Personally I have no interest in my "moving time" - I want "elapsed time" to be the deafult for my training runs as well as my races. When "moving time" is used to calculate pace/splits I can't really compare my training runs in a meaningful way - this is especially true for my uphill "runs" where my pace is often ... embarrassingly slow. I would also prefer to not have to flag my training runs as "races" in order to get splits and average pace based on "elapsed time".

    Best regards,

    Karl Wallevik
    Norway

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  • I agree: "Strava uses Moving Pace for Mile Spilts and NOT YOUR ACTUAL PACE."

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  • This should be fixed...why should my pace vary depending on activity (or deviate in any way from ACTUAL)? Setting an activity as "race" is a sorry work around to correct a faulty algorithm. Come on guys.....I second the complaints of most of everything mentioned above.

    -=Adam

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  • Ditto.  I start my run and I don't stop.  Strava consistently takes off a minute for my moving time.  Does it think I'm going too slow, thereby thinking I'm not moving for a minute?  My slowest pace total (I run with Nike+ app, too) is ~12 min/mile, which is not THAT slow.

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  • This is from Stravas definition:

    Moving Time

    The moving time feature on Strava is used for all running activities that don't depend on fair competition (races and segments). We calculate moving time in two ways.

    • If the runner doesn't use the pause feature on their Garmin device, we will automatically detect when the runner is resting, and we will calculate moving time and pace using only GPS data. The moving threshold is anything faster than 30 minute mile pace for running activities.
    • If the runner chooses to pause their run activity on their Garmin device, we will honor that choice and represent moving time according to the time and pace shown on the GPS device.



    So as Elle mentioned already just push the pause button on the device at least once and Strava should not add pauses automatically. Can anyone confirm that this works?

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  • No, it doesnt, it wont reflect that time for the duration of the pause but will still exclude other very slow segments (those often associated to big technical climbs)

    At this point I am beyond frustrated with Strava's concept of moving time as it is time and time again incorrectly reflecting the time and moving pace of different activities for a large number of us who participate in the trail running community. Its basically negated the value of any of these stats, especially on mobile devices.

    There are a number of people now referring to Strava "Hero Mode".... because it makes average runs look great....

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  • On my Garmin watch I have a feature called "Auto Pause", where it pauses the recording when the pace is below 30 minute per mile (for example). 

    Interesting. If I understand the Moving Time definition above correctly, this means that if I turn it on in the watch I will get only the moving time on Strava.

    And if I turn it off in the watch, Strava will simulate that I had it turned on by doing exactly what my watch would have done if I had turned it on.

    Now that was a new definition of 'honor that choice'.

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  • The way I understand it is it's not talking about the AUTO-Pause feature. It's just refering to pausing it manually. So actually pushing the pause button on the watch. 

    So this definition needs to be defined more clearly. What is the "pause feature" mentioned in the definition? Does AUTO -Pause count? or Just manual pause?

    There are 3 possibilities:

    Turn Auto-Pause OFF and push the pause button once
    Turn Auto-Pause ON and push the pause button once
    Turn Auto-Pause ON and no need to push button

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  • I don't think there's any difference between a pause from a button press or from a software condition, a pause is a pause is a pause. But when Strava tries to detect resting and excludes that, it effectively becomes the same thing as if I had turned on Auto-Pause on my watch. Point is, I actively choose to turn Auto-Pause off, because I want pauses in my workout to be included as well. 

    But Strava dishonors my setting and does some auto-pause detection of its own.... with moderate success, it seems.

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  • But what about anything other than a Garmin device? I use a TomTom Multisport watch, and for a run I did a few weeks back, Strava still shaved a few seconds off the moving time even though I used the pause function. If this algorithm is specific to Garmin devices, all other devices should be exempt for Moving Time so that we get proper timing on our trail runs.

    There's not many days I drop below 30min/mile at any point in a run, but Moving Time always shaves from a few seconds up to almost a minute off my training runs. 

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  • @Calle: I understand. So in theory you can turn auto-pause OFF and then just to "trick" Strava in to using elapsed time as moving time just manually push the pause button once (then resume of course). Either at the begining or end of the run so Strava has at lease one pause and hopefully "honor that choice and represent moving time according to the time and pace shown on the GPS device".
    I wonder if that would actually work?

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  • @Tom B: I wonder why I would even have to bother? Seems easier to take my data elsewhere.

    I press start, I run for a while, I press stop. Why would I have to remember doing anything else to get a proper time?

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  • @Calle: Yep totally agree. 

    I was just wondering if this "hack" works. It remains to be seen.

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  • For me, the recent update where Garmin Connect data automatically syncs to Strava has significantly helped this Moving Time issue. The data is not always perfect, but it's much closer to reality.

    Just wanted to add my two cents and thank Strava for implementing this time-saving feature!

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  • @phillysports 20: Agree that the new feature for syncing is great but this is just an automated way of sending data, it shouldn't change the data itself. I'd be curious if you have any examples of how improvements may have been made?

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  • I don't have any hard data, it just seems as though the discrepancies are much smaller. I had been marking all my Strava runs as "races" to eliminate this issue, but I haven't had to do that much since the sync feature went into effect.

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  • It has been over a year since I started this thread and Strava has yet to fix the bug related to Pace / Moving Pace as I originally and repeatedly brought up. There has been significant discussion on this thread about the confusion over the fundamental data associated with our runs, how Strava alters that data, labels it and presents it.

    This thread is now huge and over a year old. Strava's response is to ignore its customers and tell them what they want - not listening to what we want but telling us what we want. This is a quote from this thread in November 2013 from a Strava employee:

    "At this time we have no plans to change the way we display pace. We feel that this the way the vast majority of our runners want pace to be displayed."

    - Travis Robison

    It is now very clear that the vast majority of runners want to see there actual pace values without either; 1) tagging a training run as a Race, or 2) executing a workaround such as starting and stopping your watch to avoid Strava's moving pace algorithms to kick it.

    Additionally, as I pointed out over a year ago at the start of this thread and repeatedly in this thread and from customer support tickets is that regardless of which data Strava is showing, their labeling of moving pace values as just Pace - is a BUG. Strava and fellow runners - there is no way around this. The first thing to be fixed is for Strava to correctly label their data fields and NOT OVERLOAD them. When a run is tagged as a Run or a Race, the Pace values (overall and mile splits) toggle between Moving Pace (for a Run) and Pace (for a Race), yet the LABEL is still just Pace. This is overloading the data fields and a BUG.

    This is the equivalent of Amazon having a field called "Money" for a product, and the value of that field arbitrarily alternating between "10" and "13" and not knowing what the currency is; USD, Euro's, etc.

    I am raising awareness of this bug again by attaching two screenshots of a recent trail run/hike where I stopped for breaks. You can see that when the run is toggled between Run and Race, the pace values change, yet the pace Label is the same! Moving Pace values need to be labeled as Moving Pace! Not Pace! This is what Garmin does btw.

    This pace labeling bug on both the web and mobile apps is the first thing that needs to change. Secondly, to satisfy everyone (who are paying you Strava btw), we need to see BOTH Pace and Moving Pace values displayed and clearly labelled on the same screen without altering the tag of the run.

    I have suspended paying for Strava until I see this has been fixed and Strava starts to listen to its customers and fixes outstanding fundamental data bugs. I urge others to do the same. Over a year is too long for Strava to ignore this issue and its customers.

    Please see the 2 attachments on this post for clarification of this pace labeling bug. 

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  • It would be really useful if on Strava we could see on our activities elapsed time and average page.  It is really amazing that it is missing such as basic feature that every other activity tracking system has.

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  • Agreed, and I am also suspending my subscription.

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  • I suspect the problem lies much deeper so this isn't an easy fix for Strava engineers. My impression from looking at numerous charts is that Strava does some filtering of data points when GPS tracks are uploaded and throws away points that too close. Then activity charts depends on these "filtered" track - if you look carefully you can see moving time on the x-axis and all segments where you weren't moving (like aid stations) are not showing up on the charts. Also I suspect the best estimated results for various distances depending on these "filtered" tracks, etc. This would be a good explanation of getting a number of best estimated efforts on fairly slow runs in mountains. So I think the problem is much more fundamental.

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  • This is really terrible. Had 7 minutes of stopped time on a run in a park where I didn't stop at all, this needs to be optional I just want to see my proper times without having to switch every session to race. Really doesn't work well for runnners.

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  • Frankly I'm passed caring about Strava calculating moving time incorrectly. But please just add a simple toggle button to display elapsed time if you want to when sharing your data. Flicking to Race only alters the headline display to elapsed time, it still uses moving time when sharing.
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  • Wow, this is a joke.

     

    • 10.1mi
      Distance
    •  
    • 1:23:33
       Moving Time
    •  
    • 8:18/mi
      Pace
    Elevation
    441ft
    Calories
    0
    Elapsed Time
    1:34:20
    11 minutes difference between elapsed and moving time on a run where I didn't stop??
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  • I have not posted in this thread for quite some time as frankly it was winding me up. How Strava can take perfectly good accurate data from devices and then CHOOSE to change it to make it inaccurate and then claim that “there is nothing they can do about it”, and “it’s just the way the system works”... I will never know...

    Anyway, I am not writing this post for the good of Strava, I am writing this for the benefit of those who like me find this moving time/pace thing extremely frustrating and ridiculous.

    As with everything this might not apply to all, but I use a Garmin Forerunner 110, and I suffer with consistently bad and unacceptable variances between moving and actual pace/time... but in the last couple of weeks I have made a bit of a discovery...

    Now that the nights are drawing in here in the UK I am once again running in the dark and so having to use the light on my watch to see what’s going on. A couple of weeks ago when I was getting tired instead of pressing “light” I accidently pressed “stop”. Realising my mistake I quickly pressed “start” again and continued my run.

    Then I got to thinking about some of the comments on this thread and in particular the question as to whether pausing your watch during runs for some reason forces Strava to present the actual data rather than present its own fantasy version of the truth.

    I had previously dismissed this theory as I’m sure in the past I have paused my watch and it has not made any difference, but nevertheless it got me thinking. As on this occasion I had accidently paused my watch (probably for only a second) maybe I should just try it once more and see what happens. So during this hour long run I have now paused my watch a couple of times and probably lost just 2 or 3 seconds.

    When I got home I was then happy and surprised to find that my “moving” time was virtually the same as my “elapsed” time... This could of course have been a fluke as every now and again this does happen, so I thought I would try this out on my next couple of runs to see what happened.

    The next run I went on I added a couple of pauses one at about 1/3 distance and one at about 2/3 distance and I made sure they were at least a couple of seconds long to look like true pauses. Again the “moving” time/pace was very representative and was pretty much identical to Garmin Connect.

    Last night I thought I would try and test the theory once again, and this time push it a little bit to make this practice a bit more practical. So within probably 100m of my home I had done a quick stop-start-stop-start and then just carried on as normal for the next hour. I am very happy to report that once again the results on Strava were almost identical to Garmin Connect.

    So there you go... I still can’t believe that Strava has completely ignored this thread for such a long time, and I pat those on the back who have cancelled their premium subscriptions in protest. I am hoping that I may have found myself a simple little fix for this stupid problem, and hopefully this could work for some of you as well.

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  • I've also found pausing my forerunner 110 for a second a couple of times during the run stops the ridiculous moving times calculations.

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  • I quote Strava:

    "If the runner doesn't use the pause feature on their Garmin device, (Strava) will automatically detect when the runner is resting, and (Strava) will calculate moving time and pace using only GPS data. "

    "The moving threshold is anything faster than 30 minute mile pace for running activities."  (My opinion: this threshold is useless because if the GPS Data is not perfectly reliable then any GPS dropouts will be seen as stops) 

    "If the runner chooses to pause their run activity on their Garmin device, we will honor that choice and represent moving time according to the time and pace shown on the GPS device."

    So this means purposely stopping or pausing the Garmin (auto pause doesn't seem to count). This will force Strava to not auto detect pauses and give you moving time as elapsed time (minus any manual pauses you made) 

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  • In regards to my last comments about the erroneous and misleading labeling of moving pace as "Pace" and using that same label of "Pace" for actual pace (when marked as a Race), I opened a ticket with Strava and received their typical response of this is the way we're doing it and its not a bug. Again, not listening to customers concerns or fixing their own fundamental data bugs. This is so incredibly fundamental and basic - to simply properly label "Moving Pace" as "Moving Pace" and not use the same label of "Pace" to mean BOTH "Moving Pace" and "Pace". Blows my mind Strava does not see this as an issue they want to address - in fact say "it's an intentional UX decision". The entire point of tracking your runs as a data athlete is to correctly track and present that data for your's and other's clarity in your training. Data becomes useless otherwise. Essentially, Strava massages your data, mislabels it and misleadingly treats it as accurate and clear. And they want you to pay a monthly fee for that.

    So, not only will Stava not even show you your actual pace unless you mark a run as a "Race", they will not even label moving pace correctly as "Moving Pace".

     

    Me:

    "This ticket is being opened to track Strava's response, fixing and resolving the bug of erroneously labeling moving pace as "Pace".

    Both on the web and mobile versions of Strava:

    1) The overall data of a run shows a moving pace labeled as "Pace".

    2) The mile splits are labeled as "Pace" but have the values of moving pace.

    3) When a run is marked as a "Race", the labels of "Pace" stay the same and the values change from moving pace to pace. This is called overloading and it is erroneous to label 2 different sets of data as the same thing. Similar to creating a field called "Money" and alternating the value between 10.00 and 13.00 not knowing what currency it is and then swapping the values arbitrarily.

    For these 3 reasons, the mislabeling of Pace in Strava is erroneous and a bug and needs to be fixed.

    This ticket will be open until Strava fixes this on both the Web and Mobile apps and starts labeling moving pace as "Moving Pace" and the actual pace as "Pace" and not overloading the meaning of the label "Pace".

     

    Strava:

    "Hello Blaine,

    • Thanks again for your feedback. I understand your point. However, we do not see this is a bug. It's intentional and is a UX decision. So, as stated previously, I'll be sure to share your thoughts on this with the team.

      Cheers,
      Travis
      Strava Support Team

      October 09, 2014 10:52 AM"
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