Segment Leaderboards

This is the post for all feedback and feature requests related to Segment Leaderboards.

 

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Commentaires

478 commentaires
  • Alex Dimitriou

    Hi Alex - you suggested cutting the number of Strava Segments by at least 96% (from 32 million to less than 1 million).  Based on my experience, that would be excessive.  Here's the analysis of my last ride showing the Segments...

     

    The above certainly shows some Segment overlap, especially between miles 20 and 22, but I don't see any actual duplication (I don't think the overlap is anywhere more than 80%).  Maybe 1 or 2 of the Segments on this Activity could be removed but most seem just fine to me.

    How does this sort of Activity summary compare with what others see ?

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  • I doubt there are anywhere near that many segments that should be removed, but there are certainly a large number that should be edited.

    This is an example:

    I'm not saying this is typical but there are duplicates at several points.

    But really I'm less worried about overlap and more worried about the start and end points. One of those almost duplicates is because it turns onto a major junction and then carries on for 20 metres. I fear a lot of these are because users selected start and end points at max zoom.

    Also this would negate the need for the hazardous segments feature which has been abused as a means of removed perfectly valid segments on the say so of a single anonymous user. It is obviously so much better to report such segments to a panel of local riders who can actually fix the segment (if required).

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  • it seems to me that, since Strava can tell when we ride in a group/paceline, it should consider creating two categories of leaderboard efforts: 'group,' and 'solo.'   I'm not a leaderboard fanatic, but it is a bit disappointing to see my efforts ranked lower than people I know to be slower than I am, just because they achieved their times in chain gangs.  

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  • Jason Lamoreaux - I agree with your assessment of GPS accuracy in Strava. The inaccuracy of various GPS recording devices, combined with Strava not interpolating the segment start and end data points, means segment times can be off by several seconds. As far as Strava determining that someone was drafting behind someone else; it is simply not going to happen. The timestamp on the logged GPS data points is coming from the device’s internal clock, not from the GPS signal. Depending on when a device’s time was updated, there could be a difference of a couple of seconds. The leaderboards are good for a rough comparison of performance, but should be taken with a grain of salt.

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  • Jason, I think you’ve got the wrong Dan!

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  • We love the dialogue happening here, thanks for all the great suggestions and contributions, we'll definitely take all of this into consideration.

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  • Wind is part of cycling, like it or not. So is rain, sleet, gravel on roads or fresh pavement, traffic and groups or pelotons. A global change to back out environmental conditions (heat saps performance too) is not realistic.

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  • szh hke - I understand your concerns about over-proliferation of Segments. 

    Maybe I'm lucky, but where I live I don't see it as a major problem.  As an example, I went on a 2-hour bike ride from my house yesterday.  It included 50 Segments, ranging in length from 0.18 miles (current Strava minimum) to 2.15 miles.  I have 7 of the Segments hidden (5 for corrupted leader-boards due to poor Segment creation and 2 for duplication).  This is all fine for me.

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  • Suzanne Garner - CR = Course Record (fastest overall time posted for that segment).  It is the equivalent of a KOM or QOM (King of the Mountain or Queen of the Mountain) for cycling.  PR = Personal Record.  

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  • Susun Corda - I don't think the negative votes were associated with the concept you presented.  They are more likely associated with the understanding that there is no good way to separate solo and group rides.  Strava's algorithm is terrible and should not be used in any way.  It thinks anyone who happens to be in the same vicinity for a while is part of the same group.  Even if you could get everyone from now on to indicate whether it was a group or solo ride themselves (you never would, but just hypothetically let's say you did), you wouldn't be able to correct the 10+ years of rides already in the database, so your leaderboards would already be messed up from that.  I like the idea of separating them, but only if it was done from day one.  Now, it is too late to change unless you reset everything which would take a lot of legitimate KOMs away from people .  This is very similar to the issues raised about separating road and MTN biking.  It would make sense to do IF it was done from the start.  Now, there are millions of rides already logged that do not have the proper designation one way or the other, so the results in the leaderboards would be a mess.  

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  • Following choice no long shows up the day after you ride.

    Why not? I find this feature useful.

    It now only show all time and all time this year. They say after you ride.

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  • Hi Carlos,

    I agree, I think the same too. Your proposal should be accepted as soon as possible, it would solve the problems you have reported

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  • Hey strava community team. As a Zwift leader and a IRL Club route designer, i'm worried about the increasingly eroded user experience around segment leaderboards.

    Issue: #1: i post leaderboards for segment efforts after each SMITE ride in zwift on saturdays, and periodically with our IRL club, however, the 'club' filter mechanism often RETURNS 0 records.

    Issue #2: The filter mechanism itself is of little use because the only options are 'today', 'weekly', 'monthly', 'yearly' and all-time. The ability to target a specific date would give it greater utility, because presumably, if you are there to mine data for a single data, you may not be fortunate enough to be there on the exact date you and your club rode. Examining the difference between the following use-cases would reveal that most of us are looking for specific data, not generalized data.
    - "I want to find out what happened on date xyz, becuase it was a fondo event i participated in" Is probably more likely than "i wonder who was the fastest rider in month x of this current year".

    Issue #3:The removal of our ability to create segments in areas where there are many duplicates demonstrates an architectural issue that only appears with scale. I hope this is temporary, because it is killing a lot of use cases where competitive races that identify certain segments, would like to capture their results. Most of my competitive segments in Zwift have been irreversibly marked 'private' and i can no longer use them on behalf of my clubs. IRL segments are less of an issue because there is less duplication. I would recommend allowing us to create as many segments as we want, but to place a cap on query retrieval that is filtered by 'popularity'. However, the continued ability to harvest data for less popular segments should remain. Throw some NFRs in the backlog to improve scaling with this feature, or at least tell us what your plans are on this front.

    I know this type of refactoring takes time and effort, especially if short-cuts were built into the architecture in order to focus on user adoption years ago. I get it. But tech debt has a habit of coming back to haunt us with exponential delivery and maintenance effort, so it can't go ignored for too long. Give your engineering team 20% of their iterative budget allocation to focus on tech debt and architectural integrity - i trust them.

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  • Leaderboard exclusion is easy for runner and roadcycle. It will be a problem for MTB.
    Every month, some guys shortcut some technical singles and damage the shappers work to try to win the precious KOM. Shortcuts are under GPS precision limit. And they win only some minutes. Undetectable except by local rider.
    Local rider could be another way to validate some controversial results

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  • Pieter Godderie, interpolation has been suggested many times already, both in this version of the forum and in the previous version. I am pretty sure Strava is aware of that suggestion. They mention that themselves here:

    https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/216918227-Optimizing-Segment-Creation-how-to-create-good-segments

    Recording intervals vary between devices - for example, the Strava mobile app records every second while Garmin devices use either 1-second intervals or a smart recording which has a varied recording interval. Segment matching works the same on each GPS dataset, but depending on the device's recording interval, can yield different results. Segment matching uses the GPS points in the data closest to the start and endpoints of the segment, and as this can vary with each activity, timing on a segment can vary slightly because of this. At the present time, we don't interpolate or extrapolate GPS data to normalize for the exact start and end positions of the segment. 

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  • Steven Zeller - Are you sure about that?  When I look, Nordic skiing and running have their own segments and leaderboards.  There are a few random occurrances where someone recorded their ski as a "run" initially and then changed it later and for some reason they still show on the run leaderboard, but that is very rare.  99.9% of the time, when they change, they are removed from the running leaderboards and added to the Nordic ski segment leaderboards.  

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  • Yes to Stephen! Totally agree. Very difficult to get on a Nordic leaderboard if you primarily classic ski. Please consider dividing the activity into: Nordic (Skate) and Nordic (Classic). Same segments. Easy!

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  • I'm not a fan of the removal of so many Zwift segments from leaderboards. Who are Strava to decide which segments should and shouldn't be there? It should be community driven; wisdom of the crowd.

    As a subscriber I pay for the leaderboards feature and it's useful to see where I stack up against my friends.

    Now I see just 1 segment on some rides. Fat lot of use that is.

    By all means, chop out the duplicates and the ones with nonsensical names but please attempt to ensure close to 100% segment coverage of each route. Now there are gaps and even some reasonable climbs missing. 

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  • TRUE AGE-GROUP KOMS @PatrickMorris agree. Whilst I can still chase KOMs, it would be nice to know if I am 55, or 65, or 75 It will show an achievement. Perhaps not showing a Gringott's Vault of Crowns, but a nice Rosette. 

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  • ^ If you are a paid subscriber, with full access to the leaderboards, then it only takes one extra click to see the segment leaderboards by age group, if you are #1 in your age group should n't that be enough ?

    And if people are not willing to pay to subscribe, why should they get everything they desire from a free website ?

     

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  • I want to add Nordic Ski (and all the other) activities into Leaderboard for Club Athletes. It will allow followers to make all activities count on the leaderboard. The reason that is important is because of Leaderboards shows total activity time only for Swim, Runs and Cycle. An example of when I needed that was during winter time where our followers spend more time on Nordic skiing than running/cycling as they normally do during summer time. And they are frustrated that their time spent on Nordic Ski is not counting as an activity on the Leaderboard.

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  • ^ Let's hope it works ! At least we now know you are trying to do something about this problem.

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  • Jojo
    Thank you for a good answer to Jaisah's question.
    I have the same problem, and I think there are some possible remedies Strava could implement.

    In my case, there's a segment that used to go straight downhill, and now the clearly marked route is a series of switchbacks. Following advice here, I created a new segment, hoping that future matches would be better.

    However, that isn't working. New riders who cut the switchbacks still match, and old rides were matched to the new segment. Not only is it impossible to compete with the old matches, but this situation also encourages current riders to harm our trails by cutting the turns.

    See this segment: https://www.strava.com/segments/20484448
    and the KOM from 2012 is clearly very different.

    It seems to me that 1) you could NOT match rides predating the segment, perhaps as an option when creating the segment, 2) possibly improve the matching algorithm (I realize that would also cause complaints), or 3) tighten the matching on segments that are marked or flagged as problematic.

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  • I agree with Jaisah Webb

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  • ^ How could they merge the segments and databases without merging the leaderboards ? Possibly they could if the databases had been future proofed many years ago with activity ID tags but it seems pretty obvious from many other problems that they did not ....of course, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing for us to have now ! How many e-bikes were around when strava started their segments, and database in 2009?

    keep e bikes separate, where they belong. (IMHO :-) )

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  • Jojo Jaisah Webb I raised this very issue back in November and still think within your database constraints it would be possible to archive segments and set start dates for mountain bike trails that have evolved over time.

    https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360073465872/comments/360013367231

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  • Is it possible to increase the GPS drift tolerance for water sport segments. I'm trying to create some segments along a river that averages 30m in width. Multiple efforts along the same river will not yield a segment match because each route is not close enough to the original. Could strava increase the tolerance for watersports to remedy this?

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  • I totally agree with KJ Paul de Jong

    I know it may be shocking to some, but there are people who don't look at the Strava leaderboards.  They are out there enjoying the fresh air and use Strava for the maps, for the social aspect and for keeping track of their own data.  

    Is there a way to set "E-bike Ride" as default?  It might help for those new users, who might not realize that an "E-bike Ride" is not the same as a "Ride".

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  • Once again I want to revisit eliminating live Segments for downhill grades. I've really started to pay attention to what local Segments are live and which aren't, and there are so many grade inaccuracies in your database it's rather ridiculous. 

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