Segment Leaderboards

This is the post for all feedback and feature requests related to Segment Leaderboards.

 

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344 commenti
  • PLEASE ADD FILTERS AND SORTING TO "MY SEGMENTS" AND (IF POSSIBLE) "SEGMENT EXPLORER". I don't think this is too much to ask.

    Filters/sort like distance, KOM time, or grade are some simple ones to implement you would think.

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  • Currently, Nordic Skiing and Running share the same leaderboard, which should not be the case. It is substantially easier to outpace a runner on skis, especially if the skis in question are roller skis or if the segment has a negative grade.

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  • I do apologise for venting out my frustration, but yes I do agree with you Jason Lamoreaux power meters are note very common. If only there was an algorithm to weed out all the fake attempts, especially the ones speeding beyond the lawful limits of the road would have been one indicator for an auto flag. I managed to pair my power meter with Strava App once, because I forgot to charge my Garmin. Sadly the app crashed an hour into the ride, so I pretty much ended with no data for that ride. 

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  • David Lowther - from your description it looks like only that 'class 1' is an e-bike, there rest of it (more power, throttle, speed >25km/h) are mopeds and are vehicles (not a bike anymore)

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  • Can you exclude the time spent on the lifts on an alpine ski day from the segments list? It seems like it would be pretty easy to detect when on a lift since it is a constant speed with a fixed begin and end point and the end point is much higher than the begin point. The overall outline of the day is useful, but seeing how fast the lift is moving is completely useless. Many of the downhill segments are missing from the segment list as you can see from the two back to back "Needle Peak Rd Climb" which is probably a mountain bike route since I doubt that any alpine skier is going up the hill on their skis and there is no lift by that name at Heavenly. I do love seeing how many runs I do in a day and how many miles/km I have skied, but again, it would be great to remove the miles/km spent on the lifts from that total. Thanks!

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  • Regarding what others have said (Ian Barton, etc.) Strava really needs to increase the accuracy of segment matching. There are many many rides where people's devices are leaving 10s gaps between GPS points. The current algorithm seems to match the closest point within the segment as the timed distance.

    This can lead to people having advantages of well over 10s compared to people with 1s intervals.

    For example if someone has their GPS recording every 5s

    0,5,10,15 ... 90, 95, 100

    and there's a segment from 13s to 84s

    instead of getting a time of 71s they only match between the closest points within the segments, i.e. 15s to 80s, this gives them a much faster time of 65s recorded for the segment.

    An error of 6 seconds is pretty big and this is a fairly tame example, I've seen live cases where people are gaining more than double this advantage.

    This makes it incredibly frustrating to complete on these segments where people can have totally unfair advantages of over 10s simply because their GPS data is of poor quality.

    If you look flybys or comparisons you can see that Strava does interpret these poor GPS tracks quite well, correctly interpolating extra points so we see smooth movement rather than jumps between actual GPS points.

    Clearly Strava can work out more accurate times if it wants to. Now I understand this may be computationally expensive, in that case simply round the data the other way. Match the points just before and just after the segment.

    It is totally unfair that those with dodgy GPS units gain an advantage and those with accurate data are effectively penalised.

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  • William O., interpolation is not substantially computationally expensive. Strava doesn't need to do interpolation between all points. Basically, once they find start or finish the normal way (e.g. the closest point), let's call that point N, they only need to do interpolation between points (N-1, N) and (N, N+1). The best interpolated match will be on one of those two intervals. That is a negligible increase in computing cost and complexity. A decent developer could implement that change in one day.

    But there is another potential problem is that interpolation could introduce fractions of seconds - something that Strava may no be setup to deal with. Still they could probably work around that by rounding the interpolated time to the nearest number of seconds. 

    This problem is totally solvable. The question is whether Strava is willing to address it.

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  • Strava needs to create a virtual leaderboard for all virtual or indoor activities, and keep the regular leaderboard for efforts that are undertaken outside> As others have proposed, I too will not be renewing if things stay the way they are, and we have been calling for this for a while now. 

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  • As a comment to Jojos answer on "restarted leaderboards". A simple way to solve it is if Strava doesn't match earlier rides to a newly created segment. In other words, to end up in the leaderboard, you have to ride the segment AFTER it was created. That would solve many problems with slightly changed courses where "we" want a new leaderboard without old efforts popping up. (Doesn't solve new rides popping up in OLD leaderboards on almost identical segment but that I think is a smaller problem, main focus should be to keep the leaderboards up to date, if that messes up a leaderboard that is 5 years old that shouldn't matter as much)

    Also while on the line, what's the progress on the by far most upvoted request, to be able to communicate with the segment creator? Duplicates, segment inflation and incorrect segments are killing Strava, give the community (we who use Strava) a chance to clean up the mess.

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  • I'd disagree about the requiring HR etc. Matt. It's just stopping some people taking part. My own HR strap is busted and by the looks of it, I won't be able to get one for months with current demand and Covid slowdowns on production but I got a few KOMs only recently. Ebikes and motors are easy to spot, local moderators would work well or autoflags, for rides that pop out to prescreening.

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  • @Melvatron, Strava will never implement auto-flagging of activities or segments based on top speed because then it will have a lot of support requests from angry users. The top speed that you see in segment leaderboards isn't real most of the time - it is a result of Strava's faulty segment matching algorithm combined with smart recording used by users on their Garmin devices.

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  • Why this topic is called "Segment Leaderboards" and not "Segments" in general? Where do we discuss segment creation, discovery, and matching?

    The biggest feature that I miss on Strava, that would significantly enhance my experience, is ability to discover long segments. I am onto segments that take at least an hour to complete and potentially multiple hours. Think about those as virtual races or FKTs! Long segments especially make sense when running on trails in mountains where there are some well established routes, but also it is a cool way to introduce a new challenge and share with others. I think road cyclists would also welcome this feature.

    At the moment the only realistic way to discover long segments is to spot them in activities of others. Segment explorer almost never shows them if there are enough shorter segments in the area as shorter segments are guaranteed to be more popular, just because they have a higher chance to be matched.

    A simple and reasonable solution would be to add a filter in Segment Explorer on segment distance. I know from the old forum, that has been requested multiple times over years. Why Strava is reluctant to implement this kind of filter by distance?

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  • Linus Holmgren Totally agree with you. I help out at the local MTB-park and the trails are constantly evolving, this must be problem for many parks. The leaderboards for the recent routes are completely irrelevant since it's all runs made a year ago on a much shorter/faster route, sad because it makes the concept of segments useless in the park.

    The simple solution would be an option to not include previous runs when creating a segment. A box to tick if you don't want to include runs retroactively.

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  • Don MacDonald - E-bikes are already separated out, so that is not part of this discussion.  If you see those rides showing up in the leaderboards, they should be flagged.  As far as seasonal leaderboards, how would you choose when to separate them?  Snow comes and goes at different times every year in any one location, much less across the country/world.  It would be impossible to pick a date range for any season that would be remotely accurate across multiple years.  Here in Alaska, we have some years where we have little to no snow even through the end of December and people are rallying the trails on mountain bikes.  Other years, we have snow early in the fall and/or late in the spring, so people on fat bikes are still hammering the segments when it would traditionally be mountain bike season.  Personally, I like the idea that some segments are faster in the summer and some are faster in the winter.  We don't need there to be multiple sets of leaderboards for every segment.  That just starts leaning towards the "everyone gets a medal" idea which is a bit annoying.  

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  • I recently rode on a tarmac road next to a off road segment. I was recorded as doing the segment and awarded 2 x KOM. I am unable to delete the KOMs without changing the ride to private. I don't wish to do that, but I do want to take out the false KOMs. There should be a way to do this, after all it's my ride and i should be able to delete my recorded effort if it's incorrect.

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  • Samuel C. - I understand what you are saying, but it really wouldn't be possible to separate "winter" and "summer".  First, only some areas on the globe have different winter and summer conditions.  Second, half the work is opposite of the other half, so "winter" in one country would be "summer" in another.  Even in any one location, the months when snow is on the ground varies greatly.  I live in Alaska.  Some years, we are still riding on dirt into late December.  Other years, we have snow in the middle of October.  In the spring, sometimes we are still riding on snow in mid-late April, other years we are back on dirt in March. It also varies a lot depending on what part of the state we are in.  Some places are on snow a lot longer than other places.  It would be impossible to pick a set of dates when to switch from "winter" to "summer" to be able to break down the leaderboard accurately.

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  • I'd like that Strava think about "an alpha stage" for new public Segment. As most athlete interested to some extent in KOM hunting, I'm just frustrated by "far from optimal segment". For instance, most of my demand for Segment Mismatching are related to the pictured segment.

    In green the actual road, in red the segment (that I believe is used as THE pattern to be matched), in fact if the trace was true, one should run in the forest, enter in several private property, jump across 2 fences....

    So the problem is that the mismatch is --to me-- due to the reference used. It annoys me since every time I run in the area I know I should flag the mismatch in order to have it taken into account. However, we can notice that I (and other) went close to the segment, and if we superimpose 3 traces, we obtain this picture

    In fact the trace are relatively consistent ! And a simple trace averaging (a technique pretty used in statistics) could lead to a better consensus trace.

    So :

    1) Some segment use a poorly defined trace, which lead to frustration, lot of work handling segment mismatching, foster other poorly defined GPS trace or, even worst, creation of new, somehow redundant, segment.

    2) Strava have the data to obtain a better consensus trace

    My suggestion would be to create an "Alpha stage" for Public segment. During this stage, the segment would be tagged as alpha, so that athlete would know that the segment could still change, but as community members their run would contribute to the community. Most importantly, during the alpha stage, all the trace matching the segment would be gathered to create a "consensus segment", all the mismatch request, number of athlete running the segment or even the hazard flag, will be counted. At the end of the stage, a final decision from Strava would be delivered with some additional statistics explaining their choices, what is right and what is wrong with the segment.
    I believe, this could enhance the user experience, reduce the number of problematic segment and create another kind of challenge for the community who during a short period could benchmark new Segment.

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  • In the recent example from François G. the fundamental problem is that the Segment was not created very carefully and was subject to GPS drift, meaning not all subsequent Activities will match with it.  It has been suggested that communicating with the Segment creator might be helpful in addressing such issues although it may not always be successful.

    In my local area I became frustrated with a poor Segment that showed it going through a couple of houses and my Activities (on the adjacent road !) only matched about half the time.  I created a new Segment (based on an Activity with no drift from the line of the road) and simply used the same Segment name but with "less GPS drift" added in parentheses.  I then flagged the old Segment as hidden.  I notice that the new version of the Segment is now showing significantly more attempts than the old version, hence indicating the better matching.

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  • I don't have a problem with lots of segments on a route. What is annoying is multiple segments with the same name, and also segments that are not descriptive. Ideally it should describe a start and end, or a nockname for a certain part of a route. But eliminating identical names should be pretty easy to do.  

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  • ''Strava verified segments''

    I am writing because of the story I read on the strava blog. It's the featured story: 10 historic climbs in the Tour de France 2021. In this article they wrote about the climbs and with every climb they linked the segment to it. Well this made me think. It could be nice to see something like 'Strava verified segment'. Now when you take on a climb it's not always easy to find the right segment as a climb is mostly loaded with segments of (part of) the climb. With Strava verified segments it would make it so much easier and so much clearer which segment is the right one. There could be for example a SVS (Strava verified segment) of the Mont Ventoux from Bedoin to the top. The segment could be highlighted with some sort of token in the segments so it's even easier to find in your activity segments. In addition to this it could become a filter on the map when searching for nearby segments to only select SVS.

    Another addition to this suggestion would be that when you complete a Strava verified segment is would be highlighted in your profile. This way you can compare yourself to your friends much easier as to see who has done a big climb and how (s)he did.

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  • is it planned for near future updates that also all achieved top 10 segment results can be seen later on in a list, like all personal koms and local legends? So that we can also see if we drop out of the top 10 at a segment for example and get notifications for that? that would be really nice!

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  • When I go to a segment detail screen from a Friend's activity, I can not see where he stands on the leaderboards. If I have not attempted the segment before, the ranking is empty. (Tapping into the specific leaderboard rankings doesn't show his ranking either)

     

    If I have attempted the segment before, the leaderboards show *my* ranking, but not my friends. (example below). If I tap into the leaderboard, it only shows my placement within the rankings, but not my friend's rank.

    Could this be changed so that we can see the friend's ranking, at least within the ranking page when you tap into the leaderboard (eg, "All Time"). As an example, this way I can see that my friend is 600/2000, and I'm 722/2000 on the All Time ranking, whereas right now I can only see my own ranking of 722/2000.

    Thanks!

     

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  • Erik Bakke Soren This definitely happens with real rides as well. In one recent case Strava did eventually take action, but it shouldn't happen in the first place. If Strava regard the leaderboards as being "user patrolled" then they need to make it less of a headache. It is not realistic for users to make tickets to keep the leaderboards clean, especially if it takes a week to action each one. Hopefully they will finally make auto-flagging actually work, because clearly there are not enough man hours available to do the job by hand.

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  • Can you create a page or a folder for not KOM’s but podiums, ie 2nds and 3rds. Makes a user have a list of ones their close to to strive for = the essence and name of Strava.

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  • Simple step Strava could make to help prevent leaderboards being saturated with E-bikers: any ride that gets a QOM/KOM or cup gets automatically flagged by Strava. Those of us that chase segments log on straight-away to see what we got and will be very happy to click “Trust me - this is legitimate” as it means we got something. The e-bikers that upload from their Garmin watches and then never log on to change activity will remain flagged without us having to do it manually. I spent around 45min yesterday flagging a whole load that had uploaded in a batch! Grrr. Strava could apply automatic flagging just to non-subscribers on the basis that subscribers understand the system.

    Another idea to throw in: When reviewing rides for flagging, the calculated power histogram is usually pretty clear: both bike types have most time in low power (downhills) so ignore that - 2nd highest category for eBikes is then often the highest power zone, whereas for normal bikes it isn’t- it is more spread around the other zones with 2nd highest often z3/4. I’m in a mountainous area so this may not apply everywhere but would be an easy thing to automatically spot.

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  • Replying to Mike Strong above.

    hard to banish them as customers, but their account could be switched to just not having rides log on leaderboards.

    Great commentary otherwise!

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  • Michał K. I had a similar problem with a KOM I got yesterday and a friend had one they got this morning. About 3 hours after my friend's KOM this morning, both of ours converted from the PR icon to the crown and showed up on our list. Apparently Strava is having issues with the behind the scenes processing. If I had to guess, I'd say your's will likely appear within 24-48 hours.

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  • Steve Tucker

    I'm not necessarily taking sides, but I think there is an important distinction to make here.

    It may not be the fact that groups have an aerodynamic advantage that Richard is objecting to.

    It may instead be the fact that the leaderboards are filled with large numbers of (near) identical times.

    He may be perfectly happy with the scenario where only one member of the group is recording. It's one thing if a pro comes by and takes the KOM, but if a large group wipes out the entire top 10 and beyond, then it effectively makes the segment pointless for local competition.

    What I would quite like to see is a feature between pure leaderboards and "local legends". Something that rewards people who ride the segment regularly but is still based on performance. For example you could have a leaderboard based on each riders 3rd best time. This would exclude freak events like a Pro Peloton going past or an unusually windy day and instead reward riders who can consistently record good times.

    Also it might be nice if Strava gave more credit for Top 10 results this year. Perhaps a rolling 365 day period might be better to avoid everyone getting KOMs on New Years Day!

    The thing is eventually all segments will be full of amazing times, this will make trophies and KOMs practically unobtainable, this is one of Strava's key selling features. Strava needs to plan ahead and make sure athletes always have reasonable targets and a sense of reward for performing well against their peers.

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  • I support william o's reasoning and suggestions.

    For a possible improvement on that, maybe the leaderboard could require minimum 3 efforts, and post average of the last x # of efforts or the average of the sliding 365, or average best 3 efforts over a sliding 365 - rather than the 3rd best time in absolute.

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  • William O.

    I guess where we differ is in that I don't view a segment as "dead" just because a pro has it.  You can track your progress over time, and being 10th or whatever number against a pro is totally fine.  A digital crown on it's own at that point may just mean you're riding obscure segments.

    Masters compete in bike racing, or ironmans or whatever.  They don't beat pros.  They still are achievers.

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