Designate between a "Group" and a "Solo" ride on Strava

This would allow Strava cyclists to tag a ride as a group ride or a solo ride, and also be able to sort segment leaderboards by those filters.

 

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375 comentários
  • @ Steve

    -No, if he's the fastest then he should own the KOM

    -You are right, it does not need to have separation, but it makes sense to me and many others who have requested it.

    -no

    -no whining, this is a feature request board, open to anyone on Strava, just having a discussion as to whether it's a good idea or not. Strava will decide.

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  • I have been wondering...  Can someone explain to me why teams do not ride in the ITT stages?  Steve....?  John....?  Anyone....?

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  • so now we are comparing Strava's KOM feature to time trials?

     

    Jesus, what has this world come to?

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  • You guys need to keep in mind how small a percentage of cyclists actually use Strava. If everyone used it, most of you wouldn't be able to get a KOM to save your life.

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  • Because those are the rules. There are no such rules here, and if there were they would be unenforceable, at best. Also in races there are other rules, like that you have to qualify by being on a team that is invited, or in the correct category or age group if appropriate.


    The thing you all have to keep in mind, is that this is all for fun. It's not a real race. Stop taking it so seriously. 

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  • Thank you Steve!  This is why it is being asked for and if and when implimented it will be nice to see the difference.  The point is many of us would like to see the difference.  Clearly you have no desire to do so.  You would be free to check all your rides as "group" to see how you stack up against a group of 6 or 10 riders should you choose to.

    And John you are so right.  There is always going to be someone that is faster.

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  • Well, I disagree with Steve that "it doesn't matter why someone else was faster than you". If it didn't then why would Strava let people see just people in their age group, or weight class, or let women just see the other women? These are all reasons why someone could be faster than you which are *not* the result of lack of dedication or a flawed training regimen. If you're some woman who's 45 isn't going to look at the 25-year-old KOM and go "Wow, if I just really ratchet up my training, I can knock that dude off". He's got 20 years and testosterone on his side. So, Strava has the feature where you get to compare yourself to others in an "all else being equal" kind of thing... how do she stand against other 40-something women? If she's a close 2nd, then *that* is going to do more to make her amp up her training.

    And, even if you're not comparing yourself to other riders, I can see the point in wanting to separate your *own* group vs. solo rides. Something that motivates me is setting new PR's. But I've got some group rides in Strava where there's just no way I'm going to touch those times when riding solo... so those segments turn into my recovery segments.

     

    @Steve: Flat ground segments are silly? Okay, now that you've just called all of the cyclists in Kansas, Nebraska, Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Iowa, and Illinois pussies....   well, let me just say that, that kinda comes across as a "If it's not important to me, then it's not important, period" mindset.

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  • It seems like it would be simple to implement - and what is the harm?

    To those who (correctly) point out that it's not a race I'd say that it's instead a motivation... those of us that must always ride solo don't have other riders to push (or to be pushed by).

    For me the segments give me something to shoot at... They are what makes Strava the outstanding app that it is. Being able to compare apples to apples would be nice - even if it wasn't always accurate.

     

     

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  • Matt, clearly you missed my point. Flat ground segments are a contest of who had the best tailwind.  As for the group thing I'm ok with the second poster who just wants to filter their own rides, but disagree with anyone who wants it to affect the overall results. Even if I were to stipulate that it mattered for fairness, there is no reliable way to truly know who was in groups or got the benefit from groups
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  • Why all this fuss about a new sort parameter?

    No one is demanding a removal of weight/sex/age sort orders, so why protest against new simple feature like designating between solo and group rides?

    Btw: I actually can think of one reason, and thats it will make quite a few people loose their KOM's

     

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  • as a counter point on this topic:  I only care for my *own* efforts.  There are segments that I do solo as well as in a group at varying times, and having a way to mark "I did this on a group ride" vs "I was out by myself" would be good for my own data parsing.  

    I've seen folks that stoop to using a car to get KOM's on Strava.  For me the data isn't about me competing with others but competing with my previous times and seeing the improvements and how I'm doing *personally*.  I'm not Ted King, so I'm out there for the fun, the fellowship, and the challenge.  Someone will always be faster than me.

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  • Well, I hadn't really considered that something like this should be grounds for displacing a KOM (and, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that group-vs-solo shouldn't matter on climbs.

    As far as the flats... maybe we should leave it up to the locals. By that, I mean that, just like Strava allows people to flag segments as hazardous, perhaps people could flag segments as "draft-sensitive" or "draft-dependent"... (and it would need a certain number or percentage of supporting votes from others on the leaderboard).

    If it got turned into a draft-sensitive segment, then the KOM would be the fastest solo dude (or dudette), but you could see both leaderboards, perhaps. And, very importantly, people will be able to override Strava's initial guess as to whether they were in a group or not (for example, if you did a group ride and then broke away from the pack before the city-limit sprint, then Strava would tag it as a group, but you could override it as a solo).

    Just a thought.

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  • I had a thought this morning - if you designated your ride as a group ride, but KOM'd something while doing the work out front, it would be the same effort as if you were riding solo. This idea has too many flaws/holes to work properly. It's a great idea in theory, but as Steve says, it's IMPOSSIBLE to enforce.

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  • Well, as Brian mentioned, he's seen people draft off of cars to try to snag a KOM. So, you'll always have some portion of cheaters, and there's no way to stop them.

    I think what we're trying to solve, here, are the cases where honest, good-sportsmanship riders sometimes do group rides and then, like they do with all of their rides, upload them to Strava, and then there's some misleading data in the leaderboard. Of course this is going to depend upon these riders kinda self-reporting themselves, but I think there's a lot who would do so out of sportsmanship. I know that *I* would be one of the first in line to tag some of my group rides (even though it's going to cost me a few places in the flat-sprint leaderboards).

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  • John Steventon wrote:
    "There's s few segments I've ridden which I know I'll never get KOM as they're won during a group ride. I could try getting my wife to drive in front of me and draft her though.... hmmmmm"

    BRAVO.
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  • i like the idea of group or solo, strava records them anyway as far as times and doesn't differentiate, so at least this way can have a better idea. i would also like to be able to mark 'events' or official organised rides.

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  • This is something I have wanted for some time now and don't understand the attitude others have against it and the outright rudeness towards those who see the value of it.

    If it's another thing that can be gamed, so be it, at least it might cut down on the yahoos gunning for KOMs in a train.

    Let Strava worry about whether it's a doable feature or not.

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  • Seems a sensible feature to add - key point it shouldnt affect absolute Koms - just another way of distinguishing as per gender, age etc. as a 220 lb cyclist I don't feel too discriminated against given there is that button allowing me to compare against fellow porkers.....strava has been great as a motivational tool - anything that allows anyone to slice and dice a segment that makes them feel good has to be a positive I feel.
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  • I would like this feature, not as much for the leader boards but for comparing my own efforts.  As Steve pointed out, there are some challenges with grey areas between what constitutes a "solo" vs "group" effort that make it of limited use when comparing with others.  I'm not competitive on the leader boards in my area anyway, and neither are 90% of the Strava users in popular areas like the Bay Area. For us mortals, much of the utility of segments comes from comparing our own rides against each other and shooting for PRs.  As is, nearly all of my PRs for segments in my area I got while on group rides.  So when I go out solo, I have absolutely no chance of getting a PR, even on climbs.  For my own comparisons, I would like to maintain a "Solo PR" and a "Group PR" for segments.  It is up to me to decide how I designate a ride.  Ideally I could mark each effort as group or solo to cover rides where I start with a group and then break out solo, but that could get clunky. 

    In terms of the leader board, I agree that the overall "solo" leader board would probably not change much due to people not properly designating their rides, or defining "solo" differently from others.   But it could be useful on club leader boards where members of the club could more easily call BS on a "fake solo" club KOM, since they often all know each other and go on group rides together.  This would also open up a new leader board for groups, where you can get some buddies and try to TTT your way to a Group KOM on a segment that you may not be able to get the Solo KOM on.

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  • I'd like this too. I joined up with a fast group recently. I was towed along, doing 80% effort and still got lots of PBs! My segment times werent at all representative of my effort. I'd like to compare my segments with other local soloists, relying on their own efforts, not getting dragged along by a bunch of faster riders. However, I can understand how someone who often rides with a big fast group would be reluctant to make the distinction.
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  • I think it's fine as-is.  The steep hills don't get much benefit from drafting, so there is generally little potential to 'cheat'.  If you are drafting off someone and KOM'ing it, it's hard to imagine they aren't on strava too.

    On the flats/downhills, they aren't truly "king of the MOUNTAIN" anyway, and drafting is a legitimate part if you can pull it off.  Remember, at the top of the leaderboard, a drafting effort means you need a group of very fast disciplined people working in concert - TTT style.  With even a fast "group ride," on the other hand, you are only going to go as fast as the 80-90% percentile.  That might be faster than solo efforts, but it still leaves room for you and 3-4 similarly-matched friends to go out and try to engineer a perfect TTT pace line.  And that isn't easy.. but it's a ton of fun.  If you can pull that off down peachtree street.. you deserve the KOM!

    As for motopacing a closed road... if you have that level of ethics, you are likely just going to drive it in your car anyway.

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  • I want this so I can compare me to me.  The "default" can be group efforts, but a simple checkbox or radio button would allow me to filter out other riders and only compare my solo efforts to my solo efforts.

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  • Sean - you got that.  Just click "My Results" on the left...

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  • Sean, not sure if this helps but to just compare your own rides you can click on "My Results" on the left of the segment page.
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  • Jerry beat me to it :-)
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  • I would like to see this feature, and I'd also like to see solo vs. group leaderboards.  I don't care who thinks flat segments are silly, I enjoy trying to best other people in the flats, I find it a great motivator, and I almost always ride solo.  Saying that "drafting is a legitimate part" of flat KOMs is missing the point.  Many people want to test their own cycling ability against others' cycling ability in a sprint or flat TT.  That's fun.  Testing one's cycling ability against someone else's ability to organize a group of riders to ride together at the same time is not fun.

    Saying that a flat segment is a contest of who has the best tailwind is a gross oversimplification.  If that were true, those leaderboards would be random, but the same names are often near the top on flat segments. Weather is a naturally occurring and random element, but having a group of fast friends is not.

    Look, most of us will never get close to a climbing KOM, but we have a chance at certain flat KOMs. I think this is a pretty common experience for avid users of strava, so it should be supported. It's very frustrating to work hard to win a KOM and then one day fall 10 places because a group ride went through. 

    As far as enforcement, I would suggest self reporting as the first step.  Or, Strava can auto-tag a ride/segment as "group" when multiple riders go through, and then force the rider to respond to check a box to say, "no this was solo, it wasn't a group ride." People who want to could still lie/cheat, but that's true anyway since they can draft cars or drive and ride a motorcycle.  Another option could be to have people flag a ride as a group ride. Sometimes it's obvious, if the top 5 riders all rode it on the same day with similar times.  None of these would be perfect, but I think it would work for most cases.

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  • If I were the CEO of Strava: 

    1) I would recognize that the major attractions of my site are (a) competing against others (b) inspiring others, (c) meeting others and (d) being able to measure myself against myself. After all, I can upload my rides and see the data I need to a handful of other sites, but I won't have what I previously mentioned. 

    2) Classify KOM's in three separate categories: Group Ride, Solo, and, I'm not sure what to call it, but maybe Turf KOM? I.E. the person who has ridden it the most gets the turf KOM. That way you eliminate the scalping. 

    3) I would not agree that "faster is faster." I continuously lose KOM's to guys on bunch rides. That would be like expecting a breakaway to make it in a long distance race. That almost never happens, and especially not when the group chasing is motivated. You go anywhere between 2-???mph faster in a group. 

    4) I would add a like button to acknowledge peoples comments. (Thats probably the first thing I would do.)

    5) Then I'd sell it to Garmin and watch them screw it up. 

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  • I'm not sure about a "Turf KOM". Frankly, I think sniping segments has some appeal (the only reason I'd ever go to Kansas, frankly). However, I *do* think that efforts should have an "expiration" time (like, two years, maybe?) only in regards to their inclusion on the leaderboards (ie, they'd still be included on the "my performance" list). That way, some dude in Florida can't lock up a bunch of KOMs forever by waiting for a hurricane and getting a 60mph tailwind. I'm only half-kidding. In some cases, someone earns a KOM due to some rare set of circumstances. Or, someone who got the KOM 3 years ago might not be in the kind of shape they were once in. They should have to work to stay on top. Y'know, in boxing, if someone becomes the champ, but never fights any challengers, they'll lose their title. You should have to keep proving that you're the best. Now, that doesn't mean that Strava can't add an "All Time" leaderboard of the best performances, ever. I just don't think that should be the default leaderboard.
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  • I agree, there should be at least a filter for group rides. I think that most that disagree are those who ride mostly in groups.

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  • For the record, I've lost more KOMs to groups than I've gained, and the ones I've gotten from groups I don't care about. But I don't think there is any realistic way to properly determine when segments are done in a group or not. Anything that depends on marking the ride will fail because a) some people just upload their data to Strava and don't care about those kinds of details, b) some rides are simply a mix of group and solo, and c) even in a pure group ride, some guy may be hammering on the front the whole time not getting the benefit of the pack. Anything that relies on the segment matching will fail because it's too easy to get a false positive. Pass someone on a climb and hey look you rode with them...  That happens to me all the time. I could support a setting that allows you to filter your own results but nothing that affects the leaderboards as a whole. Keep in mind that there was a group checkbox some time ago and they took it out.

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