Feedback on Run Tags and Moving Time/Pace Calculation

Strava,

What is the difference in tagging a Run Activity as one of these Run Types?

1) Run

2) Race

3) Long Run

4) Workout

5) Treadmill

The one difference I see is that by tagging a Run as a Race, Strava modifies the Pace to be the actual Pace instead of the Moving Pace. On all other tagged Run Types, the Moving Pace is used for mile splits (but labeled as Pace). Also, the Elapsed Time is shown at the top of the overview in large vs small font and presumably calculates the pace from the Elapsed Time.

 

1) I don't see any KB Articles on Run Types, so please elaborate on them

2) Strava should not be using Moving Pace on Run mile splits - its misleading and not accurate. If Strava wishes to display the Moving Pace vs the actual Pace, then Strava should label it as such.

3) I should not have to switch my run to a Race just to see the actual Pace mile splits.

4) IMO Strava should not even use Moving Pace, its not useful. But if they wish to use it, it should be labeled so people are not confused if it is a Moving Pace or the regular Pace. By tagging a run as Race vs Run we are somehow suppose to know that the Pace has been changed from Moving Pace to Pace? Just label the Pace always and show both. For mile splits, GAP and Moving Pace (labeled as just Pace, misleadingly) are of no interest and the true Pace is not shown (unless the run is tagged as a Race)!

 

Strava - please straighten out your usage of Moving Pace. We need to see our real pace for mile splits - not a massaged # that looks great even if we stopped at every drinking fountain.

Also, on the Run overview page, the Moving Time shown is not the actual Moving Time, its the Time. Garmin defines the following times; Time, Moving Time and Elapsed Time. Strava is overloading the usage of Time and Moving Time. The label on the web page is Moving Time, but the value is Time. Change the label to Time. And in the mile splits, you do the opposite, label the pace as Pace when its really the Moving Pace. Both of these are misleading, and in the case of mile splits do not even have the actual Pace per mile. iPhone App displays Pace as Moving Pace with no option to see the actual Pace and does not label the Pace as Moving Pace either. This needs to be fixed too.

Quite simply - label the correct values - and show the real mile split Paces. Label Moving Time as Moving Time. Label Moving Pace as Moving Pace. Label Time as Time. Label Pace as Pace. And show the actual mile split Paces (not moving pace) despite how the Run is tagged.

 

connect.garmin.com labels these values correctly and includes both regular and moving times/paces.

 

 

 

96

評論

217 條評論
  • I can see that I am in the minority here but I do actually like taking stops out of my run.  So I disagree with the previous post - and I am a (fairly) serious runner (and triathlete).  If I am doing a tempo run where I want to maintain a fairly accurate pace (say 7 minute mile pace or 7:30 mile pace), I don't like road crossings and traffic lights etc. messing up my pace calculations.  It is also very useful for interval training when you don't want the stops time at all  However, I will concede that this could be an extra option and that the default should be to keep stops in.  And for calculation of segment times (if you are interested in these), actual time should always be used as you could run half a segment, take a break, and then run the rest of the segment which makes it an unfair comparison. 

    My gripe is that if moving time is in, then the calculation should be accurate which it clearly is not (see my previous post).  I again disagree with previous posters that this is too difficult as Sports Tracks and Garmin Connect manage it pretty well to name but two.

     

     

         

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  • Taking time out of a run for stops is one thing. As a fairly untrained runner, Strava detects me as resting way too much. Today I had moving time of 21:18 while I was running for 40 minutes, and I can assure you I didn't stop once. My pace shows as 3:57/km which is way faster than I can manage even on short distances. 

    These are all imported runs from .gpx files though as I wanted to test Strava vs. Endomondo. So far, this is putting me off Strava as the time and pace makes no sense to me.

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  • I did not realize this was all a problem until a recent hard effort. I was going crazy trying to figure out why my 15 miler, with an 8 mile tempo, had different information in the "Pace Analysis" than I had in my "Lap Splits". I had a rare run where I hit every intersection just right and did not stop once in the 15 miles. Any 'correction' of this is highly frustrating. 

    Issues:

    1) Some miles lost ~20 seconds off their pace. This makes me look fast but improperly inflates my understanding of my current fitness. 5:20 in a run? Possible, 4:59? Unlikely.
    2) My entire run lost 1:54
    3) My overall pace got shifted down 8 seconds per mile. 
    4) Setting all runs to "Race" muddies up my data for training analysis.

     

    One of my blips was caused by running under an overpass. My watch was able to tell the difference, but Strava's calculation of this event threw out some crazy numbers. I'm voicing my opinion that Strava should not be making decisions about when I should have stopped my watch. If I stop my watch, that's great. I don't want to record that time, but if I don't stop my watch it's because I want that data, because I'm probably still running. 

    My Thoughts: Tempos and Races should be "Pace" by default. All other runs should be defined at the User Setting level where we can choose to have "Moving Pace" used in our Strava activity analyses. Or maybe have it so the user chooses the default for "Moving Pace" or "Pace" for Runs, Tempos, and Long Runs. Races have to be "Pace".

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  • I actually think it makes sense to display moving pace and think your (OP's) arguments are actually in favor of this. When I run a 5k with even 9 min/mi splits, but have to stop at traffic lights, I want to see my running pace, not my overall pace.

     

    So thanks Strava, this is very good.

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  • Clearly some people like Strava arbitrarily determining what constitutes running and what doesn't. 

    I think the main issue isn't that it should be one way or the other, the issue is that the only way I can not have it is to tag all of my runs as Races.  I don't want to do that, I want the option to have my pace calculated by my GPS device.  Others want it to be calculated by Strava, and that is fine.  

    Please give me the choice.

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  • I din't believe there is anything wrong with the idea of showing moving pace, as some people find it beneficial.  The main problem as I see it is it doesn't work correctly (or well enough), there have been far too many of my runs where Strava thinks I have stopped when I never stopped.  This is significantly altering my moving time/pace.  I think it the moving time worked as expected no one would have a problem with it, but it fails far too often.

    I expect that fixing their algorithm for estimating then we have stopped would not be very easy as they only have GPS data to work with which can have significant inaccuracies, though they should try to fix it and at least reduce it sensitivity.

    But the simple solution which they should have done by now is allow it to be turned off per user....

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  • I had to classify all my imported runs as races, which is far from ideal.

    Make Moving Time optional, or at least tune the algorithm so it works better. A 5.56km run in 40 minutes, can't be displayed as a 5.56km run in 21:18, which is almost double the pace.

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  • I approach my running very simply:
    - I start my run
    - I mostly run as fast as I can
    - Then I stop
    I’m not really into interval training or anything like that, I just like running round as quick as I can.
    I do though spend quite a lot of time planning my running, both before I go in order to minimise crossing busy roads, and also while I’m out constantly scanning the roads for cars so that I always manage to cross roads without having to wait.

    So I don’t really mind which method Strava chooses to show pace... It’s simple... As I never stop when I’m running my moving pace and my actual pace are always identical... or are they?

    Here are my last 10 runs:
    For info SMT = Strava Moving Time & SET = Strava Elapsed Time
    SMT - 00:56:00 SET - 00:59:33 - Making me look 6% quicker than I was
    SMT - 01:02:30 SET - 01:03:48 - Making me look 2% quicker than I was
    SMT - 00:38:07 SET - 00:38:56 - Making me look 2% quicker than I was
    SMT - 00:33:33 SET - 00:33:33 - Accurate
    SMT - 00:38:27 SET - 00:39:45 - Making me look 3% quicker than I was
    SMT - 00:36:40 SET - 00:39:24 - Making me look 7% quicker than I was
    SMT - 00:18:43 SET - 00:18:43 - Accurate
    SMT - 00:30:25 SET - 00:30:25 - Accurate
    SMT - 00:37:42 SET - 00:39:10 - Making me look 4% quicker than I was
    SMT - 00:35:06 SET - 00:35:47 - Making me look 2% quicker than I was

    I’m a big fan of Strava. I like the community aspect, I like the competitive aspect with the segments, I’ll also admit that I love it when I get some kudos or a comment after I’ve done a good run... BUT what I hate is posting runs that make me look better than I actually was, and then having to put a note about it in the title of the run or comment on my own run to explain to my followers that I haven’t suddenly turned into Mo Farah over night.

    Why do I find myself having to go onto Garmin Connect to see what I’ve actually done to then go back onto to Strava to make some explanatory comment?

    Strava – I think the messages on this thread are pretty consistent... The problem really is just that your moving pace is not accurate. You either need to fix it or just standardise on Actual pace which you have no problems with.

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  • The moving time is making timing for especially trail runs with lots of climbs and stops essentially useless. It needs to be opt-in/out.

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  • Elapsed time (when I hit start and stop on my watch) should be the default, not "moving time" I want to know how long it takes me to cover a certain distance (just like in a race) whether I lose my GPS signal, stop to tie my shoe, or have to take a quick breather.

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  • I'd like to second Chris Hall's comment and what seems to be the general sentiment here -- I don't really want to see anything but my actual pace. There should be an option to do that without marking everything as a race. 

    Let us have an option to see "race-like" pace information without the "Race" flag.

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  • I agree, its only since reading this that i've understood.  The annoying things is that recently i was basing my race on the paces that strava was giving me in my ear, which was a PB pace, as it happended the chip time was 2 mins slower than strava time.  Does changing to "race" change the pacing guiode given by the app?

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  • I don't want to tag my training runs as races to get proper pace statistics. This is a serious flaw and something that will make me cancel my premium subscription.

    Since they obviously have a way of differentiating the calculation used, it shouldn't be very hard to make a checkbox in my preferences so I can choose myself if I want to see the real pace for my training or a manipulated figure that will make me unhappy on race day.

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  • I really don't use Strava for running just because of this.  Why not show both elapsed time and moving time??  A big part of Strava is generally comparing yourself with what other runners are doing and just the fact that someone could take a 2 minute break in the middle of a run and not have it counted in their pace is ridiculous...  No one I know ever tags their runs as "'races" so I never really know how i compare with them.

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  • I think there's even more wrong here. I just ran a 1600m track race in 5:09 according to my Garmin 620 and the official race timers. But somehow in there, the Garmin decided that I wasn't moving for 2 seconds. Perhaps it lost satellite. Regardless of the fact that I clearly marked this as a race, Strava is reporting 5:07 as the elapsed time, rather than the correct 5:09. 5:07 is the moving time, but that should be irrelevant for a race.

    I'd like to be able to edit the entry anyway, since the GPS can't get really accurate distance for a track race anyway (it claimed 1.04 miles, rather than 1600m - a mile is 1609m).

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  • Yeah, I've got 11:24/mile pace displayed for a leisurely hike with my family. That totally makes sense to me!

    I would too prefer to see the overall pace based on elapsed time for all my runs. Displaying pace based on moving time seems like cheating to me. If I really want to exclude some of the time there is always a pause button on my watch.

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  • Can this thread be untagged as 'answered' since it is clearly a topic a lot of people want to see addressed?

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  • Strava should acknowledge this thread. This issue makes it unusable for most runners I know. 

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  • Thanks Armand - We do acknowledge this thread. Unfortunately, I have no new updates since my March 27th response on the topic. Thanks for your continued feedback, and your feedback is certainly being shared with the team. 

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  • Thanks for the response Elle.

    To everyone else, if you read Elle's replies it's fairly clear that Strava's position on the matter is that this is how they want to present run data. It's not a bug waiting to be fixed, this is the way they see best to present data for their users. Yes, it's stupid. Yes, it makes analysis of running activities completely useless. But that's Strava's view on the matter and it doesn't look as though it's going to change any time soon,

    As I said before, the only way I can see them changing position on this is if a support thread like this reaches hundreds of complaints. I genuinely believe that the vast majority of Strava users have no idea about this whole 'Moving Pace' fiasco (I didn't until I recently), so make it clear to your friends and clubmates and post about it on forums, as to why you think Strava is a complete waste of time for analysing running activities and encourage them to post their thoughts on here.

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  • Elle,

     

    What is the reasoning people give behind wanting to only see the moving pace as opposed to both moving pace and elapsed time?  Because it gives them a false ego boost?

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  • Elle, 

    As the support representative assigned to this, I hope we aren't being too hard on you. We just want to make sure our concerns are voiced and preferably, eventually addressed. I think it's much appreciated that you have personally checked in to inform us that these comments are still being communicated.

    It's true that Strava has the most expensive premium pricing of the popular running apps. And on the side, it's been made known that Strava intends to sell the data collected to local municipalities. This (expensive) double dipping strategy is very dangerous, particularly if the developers are not tailoring the application to the users' needs for their training. If Strava wants to be taken seriously as a (running) training app, and not just a recreational way to track runs, they really need to fix this option or provide users the option of turning this on/off. I love Strava, but I struggle getting any of my sub elite friends on it because it's lacking in so many training related features and statistics. Instead, we get the 'fluff' of Moving Pace.

    If such a thread exists, the followers of this thread might be interested in reading the arguments of why Strava should display "Moving Pace" instead of "Actual Pace". It would at least give us a different perspective. This thread is lacking any substantial arguments for the latter, and if neither we; the customer, or Strava; the developer, can defend the argument for "Actual Pace" then perhaps it's time we abandon that strategy altogether. We want to hear more than: "We feel that this the way the vast majority of our runners want pace to be displayed."

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  • As I said above, I think there's more broken here, since even when I marked an activity as a race, Strava still reported the moving time as elapsed time. Compare the Strava activity here: http://www.strava.com/activities/155822125 with the Garmin Connect activity here: http://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/524280289

    Garmin is clearly showing a lot more of the information, which lets the user see what really happened.

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  • I will add my voice that I'd like a choice in choosing a run to use Elapsed time v. Moving time. I would also vote to add "trail run" as a type of run that didn't make moving time the default.

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  • I would like to add my support for this topic.

    Strava keeps giving my imported Garmin runs a faster pace than reality. It somehow shortens my moving time and thereby gives me a faster pace. For example I run 5k for 29:09 minutes WITHOUT STOPPING, not even for a second. After the Garmin import, Strava is showing my moving time 24:04. , elapsed time 29:09.
    Sure, the 4:52/km pace looks nicer than the real 5:54/km pace but I would like to see my actual pace. The fact that if I set the run with a Race tag it will show my real pace tells us that Strava *could* do it correctly but chooses to do it wrong.

    In my opinion it's not a question of cosmetics but it's just plain messing with the data. As I said i never stopped once. So apparently the threshold speed Strava uses for being stopped needs to be adjusted or something, as not all GPS trackers are the same and some have jumps which could cause the appearance of pauses that are not there. 

    Please stop adding pauses that aren't there or allow us to remove moving time and only display time elapsed.

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  • Dear Strava

    Have you read this blog from one of your competitors? (Written on 7 MARCH 2012 @ 3:33 PM)

    http://garmin.blogs.com/my_weblog/2012/03/inside-garmin-connect-time-elapsed-time-and-auto-pause.html#.U6wPYpSzGbE

    I particularly liked the part where it says:

    "We removed “Moving Time” because of confusion we heard from many in the community, and we believe you’ll have a better experience when you use the Time data field and Auto Pause, setting your own thresholds for what qualifies as “moving” or not. Time is the actual time spent doing your activity – as defined by your Auto Pause choices and when you start and stop the timer throughout the activity. Elapsed Time equals the total time in the day that passed from the moment you began to the moment you finished it all up – including any breaks or time spent at stoplights."


    It's a good little blog don't ya reckon?

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  • Steve,

    It was a very short article, however, the first bit is an UPDATE on how Garmin actually returned "Moving Pace" to Garmin Connect. However, they're quite clear on what's what, here's an example from one of my activities on Garmin Connect:

     

    Time: 53:45
    Moving Time: 53:44
    Elapsed Time: 1:04:37
    Avg Pace: 6:49 min/mi
    Avg Moving Pace: 6:49 min/mi
    Best Pace: 3:17 min/mi

    This was a track workout day. The warmup was followed by some 'stoppage time' (not auto paused, but "stop") for stretching. The Workout was continuous movement though (intervals followed by jogging right back into intervals).

    I'd still like to see the arguments for Moving Pace, but it seems that even amongst developers, there's some consistency over its value.

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  • It has been 10 months since I began this thread, yet Strava has done nothing fix these bugs. As a San Francisco runner and software engineer, I have actually applied to Strava 3 times to help make a better product, but have heard nothing back. So I'll continue to utilize the forum to effect change.

    To reiterate, this is a bug, not a preference. Strava's bug is that they overload data fields with the same label. It is clear with the 61 comments on this thread that paying customers like myself want to choose between seeing our actual Pace vs Moving Pace without changing an event to a Race type. But labeling a piece of data with the same label and changing the data in it, is called overloading and is in fact a bug.

    Here is a screenshoot from a recent run of mine where I ran the Streets of San Francisco and alternated the type between a Run and a Race. Notice the Pace labeled field changes the data but the label stays the same. This is your bug Strava. If you insist on making us view Moving Pace, you are obligated to label it as such, and this goes for the Mile Splits as well, which also the data alternates between Pace and Moving Pace without changing the label marked as "Pace".

    I ran 8 miles through the steep hills of SF casually, taking a break or walking at times. I alternated the type of the event from Run to Race. Here is the screenshot. As you can see, the label remains Pace when the data is actually the Moving Pace at 9:43/mi. When changed to a Race, the label remains the same at Pace with the data changing to 9:59. This is simply a bug, no way around it. No debate. If the data is a Moving Pace, it needs to be label as such. Period.

     

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  • I agree with the original post; times should be based on total time, NOT MOVING TIME. Moving time SKEWS the results. If Strava really does care about  users, why haven't they either fixed this issue, or somehow provided an option for the user to select their personal preference. I guess I'll just flag everything a 'race' that's of interest to me to get 'real meaningful times. Problem is, how do I compare my races to others not flagging their efforts as races?

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  • In my case Strava ADDS pauses that aren't even there. So the pace is just plain WRONG. This bugs the bejeezus out of me.
    On my last run, elapsed time should have been equal to moving time. So basically we can all assume that the majority of the running activity displayed on Strava is bogus except for race tagged runs. This basically makes Strava useless for runners as a training aid.

    Well, the good news is that Garmin Connect has upped their game and greatly improved their new user interface. I find myself going there a lot more of late, especially when I really want to analyse my training workouts. The "compare activities" feature is really usefull. 

    It seems Garmin Connect has taken a good look at the competition and listened to the community then taken the best features that made Strava unique and made them even better. I still use Strava because of the Social aspect but tend to lean towards GC for real serious training analysis. Segments, PRs, Courses, Goals, Groups, Training Plans, Workouts -- And the best part is all the features for FREE. :)
     
    And no, I don't work for Garmin -- YET :)

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